Worthy Discussion? Part II
"Those less-conscientious men will always be out there 'taking advantage' of women."
By "taking advantage" I assumes Erin means "wanting sex without marriage". Apparently in Erin and Candace's world, women don't really want sex--it's just something to which your husband is entitled once his lack of access to you forces him to marry you first.
~Comment from this recent discussion at Happy Feminist's Blog
Yep. That's right. Christian women don't want to have relations with their husbands, and the only reason my husband married me is because I FORCED him. This commenter's statement would indicate a logical fallacy of the non sequitur variety.
Anyway...I share this as evidence that Christians seeking to share about our beliefs are likely to be dismissed BY SOME, without said persons seriously engaging or seeking to understand the point of view.
But does that mean we stop sharing? I really appreciated those of you who took the time to respond to my question yesterday! It's given me a lot to consider.
Happy Feminist has a good point when she states: I like to hear opposing views directly from the people who hold them rather than distorted in the popular media. I may not always like what I see but at least I am learning what people actually think, rather than some media caricature of what certain people are supposedly like.
Definitely, HF! I'm glad we agree that the media is not necessarily a good source for gaining unbiased information;o)
Mrs. B writes: I like what you said about interacting with them, in a gracious and loving manner. However I think that majoring on 'details', as you put it, is pointless. I'm much more interested in someone's soul and where they're going to spend eternity than with their politics and such.
Yes! Such a good thing to keep in mind! For what does a man profit if he gains the world and loses his soul?
That being said, I think that we need to continue to write books and articles and blog about what we believe and how we think things should be. We need to be a voice but the Bible says in 2 Timothy 2:23 "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." also Titus 3:9 says "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."
Yes, Yes! I fully intend to not back down on what I believe, and giving the reasons why. However, I SHOULD NOT expect that reason alone will save anyone. And striving after contention or arguments about the law will not help anybody. If someone questions me, I should answer. If someone misrepresents Christ or Christians, I should try to offer them a more truthful perspective. But I don't need to be chasing people down and shoving my beliefs in their faces. And when friendly discussions disintegrate, perhaps that is the time to politely excuse oneself.
Becky Miller states: I agree with Mrs. B and HF - loving discussion can be very fruitful in helping us understand each other, but heart change is ultimately more important than mind-change. God uses "the foolish things of the world to shame the wise," and as Delirious puts it, "The Cross is such foolishness to the perishing ones." The Christian worldview will make NO SENSE to someone who does not know Jesus. But the moment someone has a personal encounter with Him, the Holy Spirit starts to teach them. Mind change follows heart change.
Friendly questioning and debate have their place, but if it becomes vituperative and pushes people away from Christ, it's pointless. Our time and energy would be much better spent on praying for those who don't know Jesus and sharing the Gospel with them. Talking about Christ and Him crucified will be more worthwhile than talking about women's roles.
Becky provides a good substitution for "striving about the law": Pray for people. And share what Christ has done for us and can do for them. To this, I would add...seek to live as an example so that they may want to know the reason for the hope within us.
You know...that's a tall order. It's much easier to argue with people, isn't it?
By "taking advantage" I assumes Erin means "wanting sex without marriage". Apparently in Erin and Candace's world, women don't really want sex--it's just something to which your husband is entitled once his lack of access to you forces him to marry you first.
~Comment from this recent discussion at Happy Feminist's Blog
Yep. That's right. Christian women don't want to have relations with their husbands, and the only reason my husband married me is because I FORCED him. This commenter's statement would indicate a logical fallacy of the non sequitur variety.
Anyway...I share this as evidence that Christians seeking to share about our beliefs are likely to be dismissed BY SOME, without said persons seriously engaging or seeking to understand the point of view.
But does that mean we stop sharing? I really appreciated those of you who took the time to respond to my question yesterday! It's given me a lot to consider.
Happy Feminist has a good point when she states: I like to hear opposing views directly from the people who hold them rather than distorted in the popular media. I may not always like what I see but at least I am learning what people actually think, rather than some media caricature of what certain people are supposedly like.
Definitely, HF! I'm glad we agree that the media is not necessarily a good source for gaining unbiased information;o)
Mrs. B writes: I like what you said about interacting with them, in a gracious and loving manner. However I think that majoring on 'details', as you put it, is pointless. I'm much more interested in someone's soul and where they're going to spend eternity than with their politics and such.
Yes! Such a good thing to keep in mind! For what does a man profit if he gains the world and loses his soul?
That being said, I think that we need to continue to write books and articles and blog about what we believe and how we think things should be. We need to be a voice but the Bible says in 2 Timothy 2:23 "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." also Titus 3:9 says "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."
Yes, Yes! I fully intend to not back down on what I believe, and giving the reasons why. However, I SHOULD NOT expect that reason alone will save anyone. And striving after contention or arguments about the law will not help anybody. If someone questions me, I should answer. If someone misrepresents Christ or Christians, I should try to offer them a more truthful perspective. But I don't need to be chasing people down and shoving my beliefs in their faces. And when friendly discussions disintegrate, perhaps that is the time to politely excuse oneself.
Becky Miller states: I agree with Mrs. B and HF - loving discussion can be very fruitful in helping us understand each other, but heart change is ultimately more important than mind-change. God uses "the foolish things of the world to shame the wise," and as Delirious puts it, "The Cross is such foolishness to the perishing ones." The Christian worldview will make NO SENSE to someone who does not know Jesus. But the moment someone has a personal encounter with Him, the Holy Spirit starts to teach them. Mind change follows heart change.
Friendly questioning and debate have their place, but if it becomes vituperative and pushes people away from Christ, it's pointless. Our time and energy would be much better spent on praying for those who don't know Jesus and sharing the Gospel with them. Talking about Christ and Him crucified will be more worthwhile than talking about women's roles.
Becky provides a good substitution for "striving about the law": Pray for people. And share what Christ has done for us and can do for them. To this, I would add...seek to live as an example so that they may want to know the reason for the hope within us.
You know...that's a tall order. It's much easier to argue with people, isn't it?
posted by Erin | 11:27 AM
2 Comments:
Erin,
What wonderful thoughts! Truly this discussion reminds me of Michael Card's song "God's Own Fool" from his work Scandalon, in which he refers to Jesus as a "fool" in the sight of the world. The chorus of the song goes as follows: "And we in our foolishness thought we were wise, He played the fool and He opened our eyes. When we in our weakness believed we were strong, He became helpless to show we were wrong. And so we follow God's own fool, for only the foolish can tell. Believe the unbelievable. Come be a fool as well."
Every time I hear this song it reminds me of how foolish the world must find Christians- our beliefs, our convictions. It is the last verse of this song that really hits home:
"So come lose your life for a carpenter's Son, for a madman who died for a dream. And you'll have the faith the first followers had, and you'll feel the weight of the beam. So surrender the hunger to say you must know. Have the courage to say "I believe." For the power of paradox opens your eyes and blinds those who say they can see."
What an excellent song. In the endcover of this cassette (LOL- tells you how long Mr. Wilt has had the recording since there is no CD) Mr. Card shares this quote: "Jesus must become for us, not merely the provider of answers to our questions; but on an infinitely larger scale, when we are so broken that we don't know what the question is...then he must become to us THE ANSWER." (Ephesians 4:12)
Sorry for such a long post...what a fruitful and powerful discussion this is!
Becky- Most certainly!:o) Either way, I hope to read them! Good luck on your app!
Mrs. Wilt- Thanks so much for sharing that song! You don't need to apologize for having too long of a comment. I'm honored that you would take your time to share that with us.
I love this...
"Jesus must become for us, not merely the provider of answers to our questions; but on an infinitely larger scale, when we are so broken that we don't know what the question is...then he must become to us THE ANSWER."
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