Boo!
Are Christians scary? I was in a blog-skipping mood last night and ended up transfixed to my computer at 2:00am pondering this question.
It seems there is a significant collection of people out there who honestly think we're monsters. Call me naive, but I'm surprised by this. I'm resigned to being thought of as "weird" because of my beliefs. I expect to be made fun of or considered "out of touch" or even ignorant. But viscerally frightening? Why this paranoia?
I rack my brain, trying to dredge up some examples from history or current times where significant numbers of sincere, practicing Christians (not just "cultural Christians" as in "America is a Christian nation") have perpetrated mass terror on their societies or blown up buildings. Where have we incited violence against innocent people, or threatened our non-believing friends? Do we steal from our neighbors? Do we rape people? Do we torch people's homes or beat people up because they disagree with our beliefs?
The particular individuals we apparently frighten point to obscure or fringe-clinging folks as examples of "the scary Christian". They theorize (or fantasize) about Christianity's mad methods and conspiracies to "take over the world and impose 'Christian martial law' on everybody else." (Oh yes...that would be terrible for society, by the way! Can you imagine a place where everyone had to "love one another as Christ first loved us"?)
Hmm...I've just had an epiphany! Maybe this phenomenon of Christian-fear is the "Bush thing" again. (Though I am not a total fan of everything Bush does, I will never comprehend the utter hatred and fear he incures from some.) But logically, that can't account for all of it. Bush has never indicated any desire to punish or persecute or exile people who don't practice his beliefs. He does consult his own convictions in his decision-making...but isn't that what's expected of the President? Is the President to govern apart from the conclusions his thinking and his faith lead him to? No...while people may or may not agree with or like Bush...he cannot be the sole reason for their fear of Christians as a whole.
A few more rabbit trails I've unsuccessfully followed to resolve this mystery in my own mind:
1. Can the fear stem from some Christian's declarations that they wish to reform or even "take over" the culture? No...I don't see it. Islam says the same thing and doesn't incure the same fear from the people who fear us. Some fractions of Islam even practice violence to accomplish their goals, and the "tolerant" liberal crowd (from whence comes much of the fear of Christians), for all intents and purposes, gives them a pass. Furthermore, most groups of people claim to want to influence their cultures. We all say things like this all the time...yes, even the "tolerants."
2. Do they believe that people such as Pat Robertson give us marching orders and we follow? (My suspicion is that Pat's "followers" include more gray-haired little grandmas than trained killers ready to carry out political assassinations, but then, I don't know everything!)
3. Are we feared because we're so shrewd and cunning that we will probably succeed at carrying out our evil plots? No...they claim to think of us as ignorant...simple-mindedly, blindly following the mandates of ancient superstitious texts. Sheep may be laughed at, but not feared.
What then?
Christ said "All men will hate you because of me". I always took this to mean that I would be mocked and ridiculed as His follower. But perhaps hate also translates to a fear reaction. People often hate what they cannot control, ever noticed that? Perhaps they see in us people who--while disagreeing with many of their fundamental beliefs--will not be wavered from our own beliefs. We won't water down our beliefs in order to endorse--for tolerance' sake--other opposing views. (Well, that only makes sense: people are either agnostic or logically conflicted...NOBODY can be multi-viewpoint and still maintain congruity within their spiritual and thought-life...but that's another discussion!)
I guess all we can do is live life according to our faith, and leave the fact that we might be hated, feared or ridiculed in God's hands. I'd hate to think what I'd have to become to be loved and revered by the world!
P.S. I'm not trying to start an argument about any of these points. I'm simply sharing a bit of my thought life here, because I wondered if it might resonate with or be helpful to other Christians who might have wondered on or considered these things too.
It seems there is a significant collection of people out there who honestly think we're monsters. Call me naive, but I'm surprised by this. I'm resigned to being thought of as "weird" because of my beliefs. I expect to be made fun of or considered "out of touch" or even ignorant. But viscerally frightening? Why this paranoia?
I rack my brain, trying to dredge up some examples from history or current times where significant numbers of sincere, practicing Christians (not just "cultural Christians" as in "America is a Christian nation") have perpetrated mass terror on their societies or blown up buildings. Where have we incited violence against innocent people, or threatened our non-believing friends? Do we steal from our neighbors? Do we rape people? Do we torch people's homes or beat people up because they disagree with our beliefs?
The particular individuals we apparently frighten point to obscure or fringe-clinging folks as examples of "the scary Christian". They theorize (or fantasize) about Christianity's mad methods and conspiracies to "take over the world and impose 'Christian martial law' on everybody else." (Oh yes...that would be terrible for society, by the way! Can you imagine a place where everyone had to "love one another as Christ first loved us"?)
Hmm...I've just had an epiphany! Maybe this phenomenon of Christian-fear is the "Bush thing" again. (Though I am not a total fan of everything Bush does, I will never comprehend the utter hatred and fear he incures from some.) But logically, that can't account for all of it. Bush has never indicated any desire to punish or persecute or exile people who don't practice his beliefs. He does consult his own convictions in his decision-making...but isn't that what's expected of the President? Is the President to govern apart from the conclusions his thinking and his faith lead him to? No...while people may or may not agree with or like Bush...he cannot be the sole reason for their fear of Christians as a whole.
A few more rabbit trails I've unsuccessfully followed to resolve this mystery in my own mind:
1. Can the fear stem from some Christian's declarations that they wish to reform or even "take over" the culture? No...I don't see it. Islam says the same thing and doesn't incure the same fear from the people who fear us. Some fractions of Islam even practice violence to accomplish their goals, and the "tolerant" liberal crowd (from whence comes much of the fear of Christians), for all intents and purposes, gives them a pass. Furthermore, most groups of people claim to want to influence their cultures. We all say things like this all the time...yes, even the "tolerants."
2. Do they believe that people such as Pat Robertson give us marching orders and we follow? (My suspicion is that Pat's "followers" include more gray-haired little grandmas than trained killers ready to carry out political assassinations, but then, I don't know everything!)
3. Are we feared because we're so shrewd and cunning that we will probably succeed at carrying out our evil plots? No...they claim to think of us as ignorant...simple-mindedly, blindly following the mandates of ancient superstitious texts. Sheep may be laughed at, but not feared.
What then?
Christ said "All men will hate you because of me". I always took this to mean that I would be mocked and ridiculed as His follower. But perhaps hate also translates to a fear reaction. People often hate what they cannot control, ever noticed that? Perhaps they see in us people who--while disagreeing with many of their fundamental beliefs--will not be wavered from our own beliefs. We won't water down our beliefs in order to endorse--for tolerance' sake--other opposing views. (Well, that only makes sense: people are either agnostic or logically conflicted...NOBODY can be multi-viewpoint and still maintain congruity within their spiritual and thought-life...but that's another discussion!)
I guess all we can do is live life according to our faith, and leave the fact that we might be hated, feared or ridiculed in God's hands. I'd hate to think what I'd have to become to be loved and revered by the world!
P.S. I'm not trying to start an argument about any of these points. I'm simply sharing a bit of my thought life here, because I wondered if it might resonate with or be helpful to other Christians who might have wondered on or considered these things too.
posted by Erin | 9:26 AM
20 Comments:
Good post, Erin...I've been thinking these same thoughts!
Erin, have you gone to Happy Feminist's blog to read what they are saying about Crystal's post on women needing protection? Happy Feminist is pretty nice and her post wasn't mean but some of the responses have been pretty sad.
Yes, I saw the post in my blog-surfing last night. Happy Feminist comments here sometimes and is always very gracious (If you see this, HF...I appreciate that about you:o). But I have to say that some of her commentors--on that post at least--were extremely condescending towards Christian belief, and even hateful. I was very saddened by what I read there.
Yep! HF is nice! Although we disagree I respect and like her. Some of her commenters???....not so nice!
Erin,
I had to giggle when I read the part about Pat Robertson. I work for him here at CBN. (Just as a side-note: Not all of us agree with everything he says all the time...)but I would have to say that the "gray-haired grandmas" far outnumber any "trained killers" we might have supporting us. :-P
Erin- I knew it! ;o)
Zan- Hang in there! Having never been pregnant, I can't comment to that...but I have gone through things in my life where I felt spiritual oppression, so I know exactly what you're talking about. What Luther said makes sense. I think Satan will find anything he can to mess with people. You're doing the right thing though...just focusing on God and what you have to do. Hope your baby comes safely and quickly!
Zan, I think it's wise to know yourself well enough that you need to focus on the positive. There have been times that I have thought about not reading HF's site anymore....it may come to that some day. Besides, I don't think my comments REALLY change anyone's opinion. I don't comment there very often though, because I feel that they have a right to discuss their issues without my interference but sometimes I can't help myself...especially when they mock God.
Oh how funny -- I was just checking in, and didn't expect to be the subject of a thread. I really appreciate all of your very kind comments. I am sorry that some of my commenters offended people. (I have a policy of trying to allow anyone and everyone to comment on my site without moderation.)
I am happy to say that I value Christianity and its contributions to our civilization, and I value my Christian friends and relatives. (I'm the granddaughter, of a Lutheran minister.) I'm also enjoying my current project of re-reading the Bible. But I think I have some insight into why some people characterize Christians as "scary." So at the risk of causing further offense, here goes:
-- Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the ONLY means to salvation. Christianity is one of the few major world religions to declare that there is only one path to salvation. (Jews, Hindus and Buddhists, in contrast, do not claim that there is only one path to God or salvation. I am not sure about Muslims.)
-- Many or most Christians believe that those who do not believe in Christ will go to hell-- even those of us who are well-intentioned but honestly do not believe in Christ. Many conservative Christians believe that hell is a place of eternal PHYSICAL torture.
This belief system has been used to justify historical atrocities like the Spanish Inquisition -- which had a certain logic if one accepts that lack of belief in Christ condemns a person to eternal torture. The Spanish inquisitors thought it was appropriate to suppress anti-Christian ideas because it could lead people to reject Christianity and thus become damned. They also believed it was appropriate to torture or execute "heretics" in order to save their souls or to protect other souls from heretical ideas. Obviously, nothing like that would happen in the U.S. anytime soon, but people do worry about bad things, like censorship or persecution of religious minorities, potentially resulting from Christian beliefs. (I am not saying this is correct, but I think it is the way a lot of non-Christians think.)
People also remember a time when Christianity was the majority religion in this country as a time of oppression for minority religions. My father remembers that he and other Jewish kids in his public school were forced to say the Lord's Prayer even though it was not part of their religion.
People also worry about the notion of the Bible being inerrant truth. If the Bible is without error, why shouldn't its laws be imposed on people? Why shouldn't we have a theocracy? I think the Dominionists you write about in your next post advocate precisely that view.
As I said, I personally value many aspects of Christianity, and I truly love the Christians in my life. I don't like the idea of people simply writing off Christianity. But I too often wonder about the politicized Religious Right (inluding the Dominionists!) and what their agenda for our country might be.
Well said.----**EXCELLENT** comments Zan!!!!!!!!!!!
I especially liked this one:
"Just because somebody has labeled themself as one (a Christian) it doesn't mean they are."
I hope HF comes back to read this.
I am back! And I actually agree with the core of what Zan has to say-- you can't lump everyone into the same mold.
I think it is important for all people of good faith to do the hard work of treating people as individuals rather than representatives of a group. I don't assume that all people who call themselves Christian will fall into the same error as the Spanish Inquisitors. I don't assume that all Muslims are dangerous either. I think there is value to be found in both Christianity and Islam, even if I am also critical of many Christian and Muslim beliefs.
I think you are correct in saying that secular liberals often pre-judge Christians, and that shouldn't happen. That's something we secular liberals need to work on-- although I think you will find that secular liberals believe in freedom of religion for all, including Christians.
One thing that makes me nervous (not scared, but nervous) about certain politicized Christian groups is that they do seem to want to impose their religious values on others. For example, I don't have a beef if Christians want to believe and teach their children that homosexuality is a sin. But I do have a beef if Christians want the government to try to regulate the consensual sexual behavior of gay couples. I haven't been able to find any reason to prevent gay people from having sex other than the fact that it is against certain religious beliefs.
I also don't have a beef with with someone having a Ten Commandments monument in his yard, but I do object to a courthouse endorsing the Ten Commandments because that is tanatmount to the government endorsing one religion at the expense of others. ("Thou shalt have no God before me" is a pretty controversial statement for people who worship other gods.)
HF- So sweet and patient of you to try to engage us ingnorant housewives in rational discussion. (JUST kidding! I know you don't feel that way;o)
Anyway...don't feel the need to apologize for your commenters. I think their comments reflect their heart, and the real thing that makes me sad is not any personal offense, but that they do not know or understand the personal relationship that can be found with God. Those of us who have that relationship wish that everyone could find what we have.
I wish I could address all of your points, but that would take a very long time! Zan...I liked your response, it was very clear and to the point.
I think we all agree that we can't lump people into broad categories. Christians don't have the right to try to "lump" people that don't agree with us anymore than anyone else does. However, we do believe as Christians that God does the judging. That causes us to be concerned about people who seem to be living apart from God. Still, we know that NOTHING we can do will change a person's heart. WE cannot hold people to God's standards and make them behave in certain ways. Only God can do that, by working in their hearts. Therefore, it would be absolutely silly for us to try to make everyone in America act like Christians when they're not, if only for the simple reason that it's impossible!
I think we would also share the opinion, however, that there DO have to be rules and standards within society. I would venture to say that not only do Christians have just as much right as anyone else to be involved politically and vote according to their beliefs about what is best for society...but that secularists ALSO vote in such a way as "imposes their religious values on others". (Religion being a set of values, secularists have their own version of religion). There is NO difference between a humanist, secularist, atheist, darwinian, etc., political activist and a conservative Christian in that respect. We all bring our beliefs and presuppositions to the ballot box.
Just a few examples of how a secularist might impose his values:
-Higher taxes to pay for more social services: greater burden on everyone and diminishment of the importance of working hard for one's needs and ability to give charitably.
-Gay marriage (since you brought it up:o): Our children grow up in a world of gender and sexual confusion. Disease and health concerns rise (VERY high mortality rate amongst those who practice homosexuality). "Marriage" means everything, so it no longer means anything. Our society would be sanctioning an arrangement that causes children (if they are adopted or conceieved artificially) to go without a mother or a father.
-No death penalty and laxer punishments for criminals: society is unsafer, because the fear of pubishment is lessened.
-Citizens aren't allowed to be armed: the ability to protect one's family is removed. Only criminals would have weapons and law-abiding citizens would be powerless against them. (Do you think a law against guns is going to stop a law-breaker from obtaining one?)
I could go on, but I hope that I've made my point that "imposing values" is not unique to people of Christian beliefs. Our society HAS to accept some imposition of values. It's only a question of, which ones? And I think we ALL have the right to make our voices heard within this debate.
First, I'll respond to Zan's question about whether there is really anything positive about Islam. I can't say I am huge expert but I did have the pleasure of living in an Islamic country for a while when I was a teenager. I don't love everything about Islam, and certainly, like Christianity, it is sometimes corrupted by fallible human beings.
Here are some positive things about Islam, some of which are similar or the same as with Christianity (with some slight variation):
-- belief in one indivisible God
-- belief in "submission" to God's will
-- belief that all human beings alike have sin(except Mary, and maybe Jesus-- I am not sure about this)
-- reverence for Jesus (but as a human being not as Christ)
-- belief that one can gain access to Paradise only if one's good deeds outweigh one's bad deeds-- but that it is only through God's mercy that one is able to do good deeds. One gains God's mercy only through submission to God.
-- injunctions throughout the Koran to respect and tolerate other religions (although this respect does not preclude theocracy, nor does it mean allowing other religions to proselytize-- it does mean that Muslim states are supposed to, at the very least, permit Christians to worship freely albeit privately!). Islam actually has a better history of tolerance towards Jews than Christianity does -- until recent years when Arab Muslims became upset at the creation of Israel.
-- Islam rejects any kind of racism. It is intended to be a "universal religion."
-- Charity in certain specified amounts is one of the five Pillars of Islam.
-- Prayers five times a day and a month of fasting between dawn and dusk encourages communion with God.
When I think of Islam, I think of a religion that promotes positive ethical behavior and communion with God, just as Christianity does. I obviously condemn Muslims who commit terrorist acts, and Muslim theocracies like Saudi Arabia which treat women terribly -- but these are just as much corruptions of Islam as the Spanish Inquisition was a corruption of Christianity.
Yikes, I didn't mean to go on so long. I'll try to do better with the next issue -- do members of the Religious Right really support laws criminalizing private sexual behavior by homosexuals? Yes! Those types of laws were held unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in Lawrence v. Texas. Here is what Doug Phillips had to say in this post http://www.visionforum.com/hottopics/blogs/dwp/?archive=/2004_10_01_index.htm#109781195263221270:
"God destroys nations, not because they fail to define marriage, but because the civil magistrate tolerates and condones perversion, or refuses to enforce Gods law (which has been and remains our constitutional, common law tradition---notwithstanding the usurpatious and unconstitutional ruling in Lawrence v. Texas), thus allowing homosexuality to spread unchecked throughout the land. Sodom and Gomorah were not destroyed because they legalized gay marriage. They were destroyed because sodomy pervaded the land and was not punished. The magistrate did not enforce Gods law."
I believe James Dobson holds similar views. I realize they are not representative of Christianity, but they are examples of people whose Christian beliefs "scare" me, because they would want to impose God's Law on me with regard to purely private sexual decisions.
And finally, (I'll stop soon, I promise) I'll address Erin's excellent point about values. I agree that most of us vote based on values, including values we derive from our religions-- and I don't see anything wrong with that.
I get nervous though when people try to impose values on me with regard to private behavior and with no rational basis outside of "it says so in the Bible--" or when people want my government to endorse or impose certain religious beliefs. (I don't mind seeing a copy of the Ten Commandments, but I do mind if my court system endorses it.)
-- belief that one can gain access to Paradise only if one's good deeds outweigh one's bad deeds-- but that it is only through God's mercy that one is able to do good deeds. One gains God's mercy only through submission to God.
HF- Actually, this is the very essential difference between Islam and Christianity: Christians understand God's Word to mean that we cannot ever do enough good deeds to please Him. Even if we did 100 "good things" and only 1 bad thing...that one bad thing is enough to separate us eternally from God because He is perfect.
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Romans 5:6-9
A great article on understanding the difference between Islam and Christianity is found here:
http://www.worldmag.com/articles/11550
I don't think I should start a small army and decsend upon San Francisco an force them to change their ways.
Zan, you make me laugh:o)
Wow, I go away for an afternoon and miss a REALLY good discussion! Good job ladies!
Erin, I **LOVE** the way you communicate.....you are truly gifted. You have a way of writing that exalts truth but is very kind. Zan, you are gifted in writing too.....your writing style is different from Erin's but really cool none-the-less! You are so clear and 'real' and FUNNY. I LOVE reading your comments.
**Politics isn't the answer for changing people's hearts and manners and habits...**
I SO MUCH agree with that sentence!
This was a great discussion. I definitely understand that Islam is different from Christianity in significant ways. I was only trying to say that there are more similiarities than one might suppose and that there are positive aspects to the both Islam and Christianity. I worry about both my Muslim and Christian friends being tarred with prejudice, even while I myself am sometimes critical of those belief systems.
I am very glad to know there will be no army descending on San Francisco anytime soon-- but the Doug Phillips quote seems to be saying that it's bad for judges and magistrates not to punish "sodomites." It sounds to me like he is advocating state punishment of private behavior. I understand he is only one man, and that he does not represent all of Christianity by any means, but his is an example of the kind of rhetoric that I find "scary."
Meanwhile, I would love to see blogs by Zan and Mrs. B, but then maybe they would be less likely to comment on other blogs, which would be a loss. I have been thinking about the countdown to Zan's due date and hoping that all goes well.
Post a Comment
<< Home